Graceless

[wyld_dandelyon]

I recently had a net-encounter that reminded me of dinner at a friend's house, back when I was in High School.

Now, see, my friend and I used to debate just about everything, often taking opposing positions just for the fun of debating them. She was fearless, at least at my house, willing to debate anybody. And mostly we hung out at my house just because the chaos factor at her house was...impressive...due to the sheer number of siblings.

But this one time I had dinner at her house, and her Dad tried to start a conversation. And I didn't pick up the clues my friend and her siblings were trying to give me. So I ended up in a solo debate with this grown man--a professional, in a profession that requires brains.

As a debate, it was disappointing long before he got up, insulting me, and insulting me again, exited the room.

What a pitiful way to end a conversation. All I could do was apologise for submitting his family to his rudeness--though, on further reflection, I decided that I must have been winning the debate for him to resort to such behavior.

And then I look at the spectacle happening in my state, with a few brave Democrats doing the only thing they could do to allow public debate, and a governor who insults them, trying to convince the world to blame them for the things he is threatening to do if they won't "behave".

Sadly, unlike internet trolls, the governor has the power to do more than sling insults.

It almost makes a person appreciate trolls.

Comments

[wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com]

The senators in question are are doing their duty.

In response to one of your specific examples, it is my understanding that the Democratic senators have remained willing to negotiate from a distance, and I know that they have tried to conduct legislative business from that distance, including submitting amendments to bills, something they had previously been able to do while traveling. The governor has refused to accept any communications from them, and continues to refuse to use our wonderful modern technology to speak with them. That's not their fault.

Most recently, the governor decided to prevent their staff from even scanning or copying documents. That's not their fault either.

Legislators have always traveled when (in their opinion) the trip was in the interest of their constituents. This is not normally considered dereliction of duty. From what I can see, the governor is sabotaging their attempts to work effectively at the same time that he is repeatedly using his position to get free television time to denigrate his opponents.

Oh--and in the meantime, they're not getting paid. Right now it looks like they will get paid eventually, but for the moment, they have no income to offset the additional expenses of living away from home--expenses that we all know will not be approved as business expenses, whether or not we believe they should be.

You may disagree about whether my Senators' method of working for their constituents' interests is a good idea, but I have not heard anyone advance the opinion that they have some other motive for their behavior.

And it's very rude to call them dishonorable and derelict and all the other things I've heard them called when it is clear that their intent is to serve Wisconsin and its citizens as best they can.

[stryck.livejournal.com]

But it's not clear to me that their intent is to serve all of Wisconsin's citizens equally. It seems they wish to serve the leadership of the public unions more than those whose wages go to union dues or those whose taxes go to pay the union members. The unions are running ads for their side, using money from compulsary dues which comes from paychecks funded by taxes. Guaranteed funds, unless the rules of how the dues are collected change.

[wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com]

What do you base this conclusion on?

Also, if compulsory dues are the problem, why does the legislation target collective bargaining and leave the dues structure alone?

[stryck.livejournal.com]

It targets multiple items in the structure.

It seems no news outlet is reporting the compulsory dues, nor how they are collected in Wisconsin. I had to dig to find this resource:

http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/journal_media_detail.asp?prid=5622&locid=177

"The state’s civil service system, among the strongest in the country, would remain in place. State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures. Local police, fire and state patrol would be exempted from the changes. Other reforms will include state and local governments not collecting union dues, annual certification will be required in a secret ballot, and any employee can opt out of paying union dues. "

Right now, if you are a teacher in Wisconsin, you are automatically part of the union. Your dues are taken out by the state (just like your income taxes) and passed on, whatever your opinion of the matter, and there is no mechanism to vote to get rid of the union if the workers are not satisfied by their representation.

40% of the teachers may have called in sick, but what about the 60% who stayed to work? Are they all happy with the union? Don't they deserve a say?

[wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I doubt that the governmental entities have anything to do with union dues for teachers in private schools. That will bear thinking about.

I think it's totally unreasonable to assume that all or even most of the 60% of teachers who stayed at work like the bill. What they usually assume about letters (snail mail, anyway) written to governmental officials is that there are at least 10 people who agree with each letter who were too lazy to actually write. I would think that would be even more true of going out to stand in the cold in a Wisconsin winter day--much less days, or days and nights.

And there. have been protests in other Wisconsin cities too, that mostly haven't been covered by even the local press. I drove through a huge one in downtown Milwaukee that wasn't even mentioned in the local press.

If the union bosses had been abusing their power, which I admit is possible, I didn't see union or non-union people marching in the street about that here, not even in good weather. Nor do I remember my union or non-union friends complaining about the teachers' union, or the other unions of public employees.

In contrast, I do remember many of them complaining about the power and actions of the government.

Sure, both sides deserve a say. But even when a counter-demonstration at the Capitol was announced on all the TV news channels two days in advance, the pro-Walker turnout was low.